Ipt assignment about Ramabai and Vivekananda PDF

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Indian Political Thought-II TRADITIONAL THINKERS AND WOMEN IN MODERN INDIA

Submitted To: Ms Shilpi Singh Submitted By: Shivani Vats (434 - 3B), Aaliya Zeva (472 - 3B) Submitted On: April 21, 2022 Department: Political Science (Hons)

Traditional Thinkers and Women in Modern India ABSTRACT: This paper is an attempt to capture the conversation between Swami Vivekananda and Pandita Ramabai regarding the view they might have toward modern women with a focus on middle-class women. The conversation is set in the 21st century when with capitalism, consumerism and westernisation, women are more independent than they have ever been. However, Middle-class women in India have been facing the same problems from the mediaeval time to the present day . They have remained a powerful, still vulnerable group in India. Both Ramabai and Vivekananda have worked to improve the condition of women but when we delve deeper we find that they took very different approaches to solve the problems. So in this light, this paper seeks to understand the ways to improve the problems of women in today's context. Although a lot has been researched and deliberated on this topic, we are curious to understand it in a dialogue form with two different perspectives of Pandita Ramabai and Swami Vivekananda . This paper draws a conversation on issues such as the public-private divide, fear of women’s sexuality, divorce, motherhood, the societal norm of purity and chastity etc. This paper has brought up a significant conclusion that though both Ramabai and Vivekananda have their own sets of thoughts about modernity and women empowerment and were somewhat ahead of their time, they are long due a revision. Both of their views need revival so that they can be more inclusive of new challenges emerging in today's Indian society. However, by drawing a comparison between Ramabai and Vivekananda, when it comes to women's issues, the former is patriarchal but thoughts of the latter are still somewhat relevant. Methodology : Our research is specially designed to seek and understand the problem from two personalities' perspectives in a dialogical form. The context has been set up in 2022 where both Ramabai and Vivekanda try to make sense of today's world with respect to women. But the main possible flaw may come out of this methodology is the modification of their opinions . Keywords: Feminine, Middle-class women, patriarchy, motherhood, consumerism

chastity,

This conversation is set up in the 2022s, when Vivekanand has delivered a lecture on “Women in Modern Society”. Ramabai has actually heard a lot about this personality and she was fascinated with the topic of the lecture and went to receive this. ……Women today in the name of being modern have become lustful and vulgar, forgetting the true Vedic traditions that were once the pride of our country. In the name of equality, they forget what the true essence of women is, that is motherhood and taking care of family. And this is the tragedy of today's Indian middle-class women, their western outlook and their quest for individuality, for which they give up a true pleasure that they can experience through motherhood. Women are no longer pure and chaste which was once the pride of our culture and society, rather they indulge themselves in worldly pleasure under the farce of modernity. I mourn for the values, Sanskriti our societies have lost and pray for the revival of those values. Only then it can be saved from the predestined destruction it is heading toward. THAT’S ALL I WOULD SAY TODAY, THANK YOU. With this Vivekananda concluded his speech followed by a round of applause…..

Ramabai: My brother, Why are women's roles defined by their biological characteristics? Why do you think that they have only this great purpose in their life? Don't you actually think giving birth is actually making them confined to four walls? Vivekananda: You are most welcome to ask. But motherhood is not confinement my lady, rather it is the most liberating and fulfilling experience in women’s life. A society where women considered motherhood as confinement can only end in tragedy, much like today's western societies which have lost the concept of family and have failed to provide children with a stable home where they can grow and nurture. I don't ask women to be restricted, but if a woman is neither chaste nor is she a mother, can she truly consider herself a woman. Rather than idealising western women, Indian women should follow the ideals of Sita, who was empowered yet pure, even in the worst circumstance, she managed to preserve her chastity and purity. She was pure, all-forgiving, sacrificing yet courageous and intellectual.

Her life in itself is an inspiration that modern women should try to adopt, rather than ever so self-destructive western culture and capitalist consumerism. Ramabai: But I don't think that liberates women. Let me explain to you the plight of middle-class women, “ Even if they are brought up with good education and they secure a job, they are still restricted under the patriarchal notion of ideal wife and women. They have been allowed to be independent, but with a price tag. In the name of freedom all, they have gotten is the cruel plight of being an ideal wife and mother at the same time being a working woman. If you set the standard for Sita, yes she sacrificed herself for her family and husband but what did she actually get out of this? She was still doubted of her purity and had to give up her life to prove otherwise. Vivekananda: What you consider a curse for women of the new middle class is what I think is a blessing. It fills me with relief that a class that was birthed out of western education and consumerism has still somehow managed to stay true to its roots. Middle-class women reflect lots of qualities I wanted Indian women to have. They are educated and independent yet they still consider being a mother and taking care of the family a top priority. No one can raise a child as well as a woman can. The attributes of womanhood such as sacrificing, patience and nurturing, are why they have the role of mothers. And the Indian middle class even with their modern outlook seem to understand this. What you say of Sita is that in the end, she gained nothing but pain, you seem to forget about the satisfaction and happiness that Sita received. That is happiness only a mother and wife can understand. Ramabai: If western culture is still close to its roots then there is a reason for practicality. This is still continuing because it was never founded on the basis of discrimination, Societal rules were kept the same for men and women. If a society has been constructed by oppressing a gender then it's surely deemed to change one day. With a few exceptions, we have seen that women are educated and independent but only she leaves their job to care for their child in the name of having so-called female-like qualities. But there is nothing like male and female work. People are assigned the work according to their nurturing in the family which is totally discriminating because this patriarchal society suppresses the discretionary power of women and they accept the female work as a norm, not a choice. Vivekananda: lady, you might feel that these norms are unfair, and to some extent, I agree with you. I don't wish for our divine mother to be oppressed, rather they should be on an equal footing as that of a man much like in the time of Vedas. Women can be workers, and

women can be leaders but that doesn't change the fact that still, their primary role will always be that of wife and mother. Equality does not mean that men or women should give up their natural roles, rather equality is performing these natural roles with equal amounts of respect and recognition. What you blame on the norms that restrict women to their feminine qualities is just your denial of their biology. Men and women are biologically different and so is their role. It is thus natural for women to be the ones raising the child. What I see in today's society is something that pains me immensely. Women in the quest for western generated individuality have given up on these natural roles, rather they have become highly sexualised beings. There is no chastity, no purity, and no devotion towards one husband as Indian women have shown throughout history. One such woman that inspires me greatly is queen Padmavati, who rather than surrender to another man’s lust, chose to immolate herself in her husband’s funeral pyre; another is Savitri who brought her husband back from the dead through sheer devotion. These are the ideals I want my country's women to look up to. This is why I praise the patriarchal family structure of today's middle class that has managed to somewhat ensure the protection of true womanhood by instilling the values of family in women. Ramabai: Yes brother, I don't have any objection to criticising women for becoming sexualised beings. And I also believe they should be devoted to their husband only. But in the name of devotion, tolerating oppression from one side is bad. If a woman is having a divorce with her husband because she is not compatible with him then still it is not accepted by the society and questions are raised about the female's devotion to her husband. But if men want to take divorce then still women are left as a vulnerable class of society and a well educated and independent middle-class woman falls prey to the typical societal rules. Moreover, if it's the case of an uneducated and dependent woman then she will die but can't ever think to divorce. So westernised individuality doesn't come with bad results only. It has some good implications which make a woman stand up in society. So females are very much captivated by the western concept of individuality. (With a slight pause ) No culture has the absolute best parts. If a motherhood concept has led to oppression of women then extreme individuality can also lead to the breakdown of family structure. But we always need to see the positive side of anything until and unless the bad side doesn't overlap the good part. So I genuinely have no problem if women are admitting the trait of individuality in them and I expect that people like you should promote freedom of thought and action for women on wide platforms rather than opposing it with a few

misleading concepts such as natural roles, purity etc which are framed for women only to suppress the equal participation and role in the family and society. Vivekananda: Quite frankly, your thought scares me, my Lady. In the name of modernity, it seems you yourself have forgotten your identity as a woman and the loyalty you have to womanhood. you are thereby, being so self-destructive toward your own nature and in the process disrupting the balance of society. I, too, am against the oppression that women face in their homes and outside them. But for the mistake of some, we cannot forsake a whole system that has been built over the centuries. This system exists there for a reason and I don't think you are being fair to it when you criticise it brutally. The traditional religions and domestic values of women have become part of well-oiled machinery. Of this, as a mother, she was the keeper of progeny and as a wife, the pivot on which revolved the domestic economy and public peace. Biology has always been destiny, and your unwillingness to accept it is the thing that is problematic rather than my thoughts. You mistake me as someone who denies women their rightful place, on the contrary, I want women to once again achieve their ideal place in society as they have in Vedic times. I want women to be educated, I want them to explore their own individual selves, I want them to be bold, to be leaders. But if for this they forsake the role nature has assigned them, then how can they accept that. Ramabai: Sure, I accept that there is nothing wrong in accepting motherhood and it should be a matter of joy but whenever it comes to a specific gender it becomes a problem ( as it is to women). When a woman is not outgoing and behaves like a mother then a man admits her as an asset that can be utilised as per his whim. Even when I watched this movie, Thappad, I felt the same pinch of that lady sacrificed her everything but when it comes to men he didn't much value her and started utilising her like his property which can be turned into anything according to her usage and that slap against her was to be accepted by her as a normal thing by her husband because she was a housewife and its vice versa wasn't true. This is my objection to motherhood, childcare and breadwinning work should be accepted both by men and women equally. The women shouldn't be assigned the work so that they may be left vulnerable to be exploited by men as per their patriarchal norms. Vivekananda: I have to say you seem to have a very negative connotation about my political thoughts. I emphasise the role of women as mothers and as caretakers but that doesn't mean that I want them to be oppressed in their own homes. For me, women are the incarnation of

Ma Saraswati, Ma Laxmi, and Ma Gita. I strongly condemn any violence against women. But you seem to assume that it is the feminine attributes of womanhood that make them subject to oppression. For that, I would say you are wrong. Motherhood provides a very strong identity for women and the husband is her shield against society. I admit that our customs are somewhat problematic but it is only because they have changed over the decades due to various social developments that aimed to subjugate women. However, in Vedic times, motherhood made women someone who should be worshipped. I want that to come back. All that said, you took the example of the movie Thappad to show oppression against women, which I too condemned. But I still strongly disagree with the female lead's stance to opt for divorce over something which could have been resolved through conversation. This is what became of today's society. Women have lost their attributes of sacrifice and patience. for the sake of their individuality, even if a small problem arises in the family they choose to divorce. Her husband loved her, so I think she could have forgotten the whole incident if it meant that their family could be saved. She didn't reconsider this decision even after they were expecting a child. This shows how selfish women were, and how selfish modern women are. That’s why I feel that we need to reeducate women about Vedas before they led to the destruction of Indian society. Ramabai: My brother Vivekanda, you seem very contradictory. On the one hand, you are showing the woman as a lead character but when it comes to real implications, you seem to defend masculinity. Coming to that movie again, even if she chose to divorce on a slap but it's not merely a slap, it is the continuation of many more violent incidents and damage to her respect which she was deemed to see in her life in every aspect. If she would have accepted that slap it would have been meant to accept male dominance and lose her respect for the relationship. I will strongly support that if the rate of divorce is increasing just because women are accepting their individuality more than that of their counter partner and discarding the male-dominant family then it is a fair and just step. Then they should surely move that way then no matter whether it is the vulnerability of a child, respect of her family, her acceptance post-divorce hinders her life. Why not all these parameters considered by man? And let me tell you one more thing, the idea I have presented for women is not more than what men are already getting in society. Divorce may feel rebellious to you for women but these are all the well-enjoyed rights for the men he is getting in the society. And why do you fear divorce? “Because the notion of man is rejected by a woman not accepted in your society

or that you man will lose the trait of masculinity and dominance which has to be exercised on women only?” Mere giving lectures and presenting the Vedas’ lessons won’t work. Men need just naked eyes to see what they are doing to grab their dominance. Vivekananda: It is laughable for you to think that I fear that women's sexuality will be dangerous for men’s masculinity. Our masculinity is not so fragile that we would need acceptance from someone else or we would need to exert dominance over the weak from us to feel powerful, masculine and validated. It might be offensive to you, but it seems like your quest for female empowerment has made you somewhat delusional. If a man’s masculinity is so fragile that it depends on women's validation then he is not a man, but a Napunsanka. Our vigour and dominance need not be exercised on weaker sections rather one who does that is no man We men are inherently masculine, and in the same way, women are inherently feminine. women can be independent, but they need the protection of family, children and their husbands. Even if a woman goes out in public to earn, to assert her leadership, her true value is in her chastity and motherhood. When a widow loses her husband it is not by choice, that’s why to some extent I sympathise with them and promote widow remarriage. Even in that case I would much rather than a widow, it is a chaste woman that gets married. But in the case of divorce where a woman by choice decides to leave her husband, and her family, don't expect any sympathy and support from me. It was the woman who already had her chance of being a wife and a mother yet she willingly gave that up when so many other chaste women didn't even receive that chance. Let's say in the movie Thappad if it was only that the women got divorced it would have been somewhat acceptable, but have you ever thought of the child who will be born in such conditions. He will be divided between his father and mother when he needs both. Moreover, if a divorced mother gets married again, then she will be in a sense forsaking her child for the sake of the child of her new husband. Thus divorce can never be acceptable and remarriage of divorcee even more so. Ramabai: Why do you think women need acceptance and sympathy towards their decision? Do you always ask a woman for validation for every act? And I ask you Vivekananda, ``will you beg for an acceptance for your Brahmachari decision in your life?” Then why does a female need validation for her every act where no one's consideration is actually required. ? If she needs validation then it indicates that she is not independent enough. And moreover, if a female is finding it difficult to survive in societal conditions then what is the meaning of

motherhood, kindness, care and protection traits in her life. ‘ Agar insaan nhi raha to values kab tak rahengi ? Uske liye insaan zinda to rehna chahiye. So these values seem a burden to her then. If she is accepting the traits in her as men do with fully wide deliberation then nobody will have a problem. But your classification of male and female traits is fully framed by societal and patriarchal social norms. If you don't want any discrimination in her life why do you men set a standard? Norms do change in society but why with men’s validation only? What I am emphasising is mindset change to accept females as equal beings. That's it. Nothing much and nothing less. When I came to know that a great personality is delivering a speech, I rushed to join it but I am very upset and hopeless that if the personalities like you will bear this mindset then how women of this country will rise in actual terms. Vivekananda: I apologize if I have offended you my lady, or if I have not been able to fulfil your expectations. I never meant to disrespect a woman, least of all an intellect like you. Women for me hold the highest place and deserve the greatest respect. I, too, want women's oppression to end and for them to get out of the vicious circle of oppression and violence. I want women to be leaders, to emerge as respected individuals rather than always being dependent on male members of the family. But you tell me as an Indian, how can I feel proud of myself if the route I show someone is the opposite of what our culture preaches. Today not only women but every Indian is blinded by the shining culture of the...